Episodes

Tune in to Episode 3, where I’ll be interviewing Businesswoman, Leadership Expert, Speaker, and President of Lean in Canada: Angela Payne. As Founder of Lean in Canada myself, I can’t help but feel that the two of us were destined to meet — and luckily, we hit it off when we did. Now Angela is a good friend and a true asset to my network. It’s not surprising that everyone who knows her recognizes that the connections she makes are authentic and lasting. In this episode, Angela and I have a lively discussion about networking, including:

-the secret to success for anyone who “hates” networking (hint: it involves redesigning your mental model)
-why putting your finger on your why will help you figure out the what
-how to recreate that feeling of connectedness during virtual events
-how women network differently, plus some tips for upping our game
-a funny story about “the 6 Angelas” (you’ve got to hear it to believe it!)

Show Transcript

Each Connect and Bloom episode is transcribed using Otter.ai. While our team is busy correcting typos where possible, it’s inevitable that some mistakes will be missed. (We’re only human!) With this in mind, please forgive any errors when reviewing transcripts, and feel free to report any issues here.

Despina Zanganas:

Hello everyone! Thank you so much for joining me on the Connect and Bloom Podcast. My guest today is Angela Payne.

Let me tell you a bit about  Angela

Having spent her whole career in the Human Capital space, Angela’s interest and passion starts with people. Everyone who knows her recognizes her ability to make authentic and long-lasting connections.  This “superpower” has enabled Angela to not only build and grow successful teams but also become a strategic coach for many other leaders inside and outside of her organizations. In her current role as co-founder of LeedHR, Angela is responsible for both development and delivery of client programs, ultimately creating better organizational leaders.  

She is also the current Canadian President at Lean In Canada a not for profit organization, where she sets the vision and plan for the National Board. Lean In Canada is a community of professional women empowering each other to build purposeful and fulfilling careers. Angela is a regular contributor to industry events where she speaks about recruitment, leadership coaching, and her greatest passion – female business leadership. 

Angela, thank you so much for joining me today!

Angela Payne

Thanks Despina, thanks for having me.

So why don’t we kick it off with this question. How did we originally connect?

So I, you know I was going back and thinking about this because I felt like I’ve known you for a really long time and then I realized that actually hasn’t really been that long. So we originally connected actually through Lean In, because those of you noticed that she was originally one of the founders of lean in and so when I came to lean in and came to the board. It was an opportunity for me to meet all of the founders who actually were past leaders and workers in the board. And so we actually connected over, LinkedIn, and, and then, you know, chit chatted and then agreed that we were going to meet, had lunch together. From there we, you know, spend time referring people and talking about, you know your work and also the work of lean in. And there we just continue to, to refer and talk and and build out build our relationship from there so that’s how I think we first got connected and that was like, I don’t know a year ago maybe, yeah I know

and I feel like I’ve talked to you all the time, although not really but. So, why don’t you tell me a little bit about your business and the work that you do. Sure.

I, so I have two hats, two roles. That’s not true. I have many more. My mom and I have a life partner so I have lots of a daughter and a sister too so. But I have two professional roles that I play most of the time which is as an owner and co founder of lead HR which is a leadership development business that’s focused on helping leaders lead better with the foundation of emotional intelligence so all the competencies of emotional intelligence in that work. And I love that work because it’s about being able to make an impact on the people who work for those leaders through through their leadership so that that’s one piece. The other piece is really as the national board president for leading Canada which, you know and have the privilege of being a part of and, and, you know, working with, which as you said is a network of 8000 women who, who really our goal is really to focus on helping them achieve whatever those ambitions look like whatever they want to achieve, but really at the intersection of Lebanon work. And that’s, and that’s the work that we do through all of our networks across Canada, predominantly in Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto. And then we support over 100 circles inside from coast to coast, within the country.

Yeah and I’m so pleased with everything that you’ve, you’ve been doing in the past year since I’ve met you. It’s been great to see the organization grow so thank you for that.

That team has been working hard to make sure that one of our strategic objectives and one of the things that we committed to because we, you know, you think about what’s legacy you want to leave in a volunteer organization, and feel good about that legacy and the work that we do. And so, one of those is really to, you know help build education and help ensure that women are really aware of the things that are available to them and all the great programs and mean it really has some really amazing great programs.

Yeah, for sure. Um, so I want to start talking about networking. So you know in general people already have an idea about what networking is, but what’s your definition of networking,

like networking for me is breathing. You know I don’t, I don’t see them as separate. I don’t see it as a task or, you know, something that I have to do. And I think maybe that’s, that’s why it. I’m able to work it into my day on a regular basis, because they don’t think of it as, Oh, I have to block off this time to network, oh, I have to like spend time doing X and Y, I look at it and say to me, networking is about how I make connection, it’s about how I actually stay engaged. For me it’s about how I learn. For me, it’s the sort of very easy panacea to my curiosity. And so it’s it’s the way that, for me, I can, you know, just go about my day because I’m curious about people I’m curious about leaders and leadership, I’m curious about women and businesses. And so for me, that helps me kind of think about networking as just part of who I am and what I do as opposed to a function that I have to like put time aside to spend not to spend on. Does that make sense.

Yeah, Absolutely. You know, I think it comes easy for me and you, because we just, we love it, you know and like you said, it’s just part of kind of who we are right, but I would say for a lot of people out there when they think of networking, they think, oh my goodness it’s such a, they kind of read it right, and they have this negative reaction. Why do you think so many people load networking.

I think there’s a couple of reasons one, I, that’s a fair comment I feel that’s fair you saying that you know we’re kind of built for that we like it and, and, and, you know, I’m an extrovert, so that’s, You know, if you looked at by MBTI. You’d see sort of some of my characteristics and so okay yes that’s maybe true but that comes a little bit easier to me because I you know I spend a lot of time on my relationships. However, I think that people look at that and may have a negative connotation about it because, as I was, was mentioning, it might seem like work right, it might seem like a task that they have to do, and that they have to spend time doing so that’s a mindset that they’ve created around, you know this big mountain of networking. I think the other thing about networking is that, you know, it’s a really broad term that you need to be able to define what you want out of it or why you do it or why you need it, because if you could, you know, really put your finger on the why, then you could really build it into something that works for you. So if you could, you know, for me, networking, as I said, helps, you know, curb my curiosity about people I’m really interested in people. It’s why early in my life I thought I want to be a real estate agent got my real estate license because I loved going into people’s homes because I was so curious to see the way they live. But, but, you know, I think they, you know some people can think well it’s like this dreaded task that I have to, you know, really put myself out there I have to like maybe expose myself I have to tell everybody everything about me or, you know, whatever that mental model perhaps that they’ve got in their head about what networking is. But for me, I actually think, if, if you were able to slightly adjust the mindset to, how can I help people. How can I start with helping first by asking the question What can I do for the other person. It is a way easier way to come at thinking about what that exchange is because you go into it with how you can help. And ultimately, you come out of it with a good way that the two of you have seen some, some way to collaborate, and sometimes you don’t, and that’s okay too.

I think you made two great points like, figure out your why and think about what you can do for others, I think, you know, when people think networking, they just think it’s like entering a room and schmoozing, and it just kind of makes you feel dirty right so I think exactly what you said by reframing, why you’re there, just makes so much sense to me.

Mm hmm. And then it makes, it makes it, I agree with you, it makes it easier and doesn’t make you feel like it’s a task.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, you know, we’ve been having these challenging times, you know, like we’re in COVID and somebody like you who just loves to network loves to meet people and it’s just so curious about people. It’s been really tough to network during COVID How have you adapted. Yeah,

I definitely had to adapt because for me, networking is about connection, and networking, and connection for me, by definition was being in front of somebody or being in close proximity to them because you know I’m a hugger. I’m, you know, I, you know, touch not inappropriately but I, I, I’m a bit more of a feely person so I tend to, you know, high five and these types of things. So for me connection was about being in close proximity. And when that went away. I had to rethink how I could recreate that feeling for me so that I was still getting fed or feeling good about the time I was spending. So I think that that’s one, One thing I needed to be very conscious of it was not the same feeling so in order for me to recreate some of that feeling. I needed to be more, you know, working on camera work right so zoom and, and I needed to use my expressions or my words, more deliberately to describe the way I felt so that I could get the same emotion back, so for me it was things like, you know, going really close to the screen and, you know, virtual high fiving people it was, it was more like, Oh, if I was close to you I would give you a hug right now so they knew at those moments that those were the connection points that I would generally feel connected. And, you know, or, you know, oh, that’s so great at this particular time I feel and so even my emotional intelligence work helped me learn to be more expressive. In a way I felt at the time, and why. So I could explain to people so that I can still have that same connection, either by voice or by, you know by zoom. I also think what changed for me was, In some ways it made it better. Just being there wasn’t all downside for me because, because I like to meet so many people, time and money became a little bit, you know, it was less expensive if you will, you know, both in my time and in my travel, I wasn’t, you know, meeting people, places and taking the time to drive their parking downtown and this and that. So, in fact, in some ways, I got to cover more ground and meet different people than I would have normally met because boundaries of country, and location, really kind of faded away, and you know I spend time doing work with women in Sri Lanka I spend time doing work with, you know, women, and hyper dad, and so these things just became much more normalized for us to be doing so I think there was, there was upside and there was pros and cons to both, but I think those were like the two biggest ones for me.

I think it was the exact same thing for me, I met a lot more people that I would not have met right like I went to these networking online networking events and I’ve talked about this before on my podcast I’ve met people from Puerto Rico from all over the US, just because of some groups and I never would have met them beforehand so cool. Yeah, and they actually helped me with my, you know, podcasts and career and all that kind of stuff so I thought it was really cool. And, yeah, I agree it was hard. I never thought of, of actually telling people that you know you would give them a virtual or you would give them a hug if you were face to face or something like that, that really says a lot, you know, just about the whole EQ and connecting with people and stuff like that, I think it’s so important, and I think it’s funny that I think you and I were like the first people to meet up with we met each other in July last year and I think July again this year like right when things opened up, we, we wanted to go out and see each other in person right but yes just

do with. Yes, you know, so, and maybe if I tell people away that this is, this is where I would give you a virtual hug they’re thinking Oh Good God, thank God that lady is not in front of me. I don’t I don’t want to. But that generally wasn’t that generally wasn’t the case, but I’m telling you the story I’m thinking wow, maybe they were thinking, geez, they don’t want that.

Maybe, but I mean, it just says a lot you know the expressions and and just moving up to the screen a little bit more I just never thought of that and it totally makes sense because when you’re in a large group, it’s easy to look disengaged and zoom right so you have to make a really big effort to, to be engaged with the other. Yeah, some

people miss read unintentionally Miss read your expression. Yeah as boredom or something like that we intended it to be.

Do you think that you network differently now versus when you started your career or, or do you think that working has changed since then.

I definitely think that I, I did it differently. I’m not sure I was really knew what I was doing or that I was deliberate about it, I think, I think in the beginning. I don’t I don’t know if this will resonate with people or not but in the beginning. I always felt like, what will this, what will this person want, like, for me, right, like what do I really have to offer this person, and are they going to feel like I’m asking them for something and that’s like, literally the last thing I wanted them to feel right, so, so in the beginning I always sort of looked at it from, like, why would they spend their time with me what do I really have to offer. You know in this conversation or what do I really have to give, and I think a lot of people might, you know, start from that position. I did early on. And, and I still suffer from it sometimes right I still think to myself, especially if it’s somebody who I hold it really high esteem and I think to myself, Well why would they give me, you know 20 minutes of their time they’ve got, you know x&y going on, what I’ve come to learn and realize is that over time is that, actually, those are, those are actually some of the most valuable connections that I’ve made, and not because they were people that I know that that I such as I have high esteem, but because they were actually good networkers themselves, and it’s like one of those things that once you see somebody who doesn’t well meaning, it’s because it doesn’t look like awkward to them it doesn’t look like a task to them, you actually don’t even realize it until you hang up that you two. Both have now come to the table with something either a collaboration or a next step or something that you can do together that you’ve even consciously were aware of that, but because of just the nature of that person also being very good at it, they were able to take you to a place where you start to feel less about, oh, okay, what do I have to offer but more about, hey, we can help each other and even if I don’t have anything per se to offer that person in their skill set, I have my time, I have my advice, I have my thoughts. I have my perspective, which in a lot of cases, to those people, that was actually what they, what they actually needed for me was my different perspective, who knew. And so that’s never underestimate really what you really do have to offer, because it’s probably not something you’re thinking about on a regular basis, but somebody else sees in you.

Absolutely. I’ve seen that happen so many times. You never think that you could bring value and then all of a sudden they call you up a year later and they, you know, thought about what you said and you know this brought me into this different direction or something like that you’re like wow really I did so, and it feels great, too. Right. So,

for my partner and I were talking about this, my business partner and I were talking about this the other day, when people like play you back something that you told them years ago and you think yourself, wow, I didn’t really realize that that had it. And I don’t even remember saying that but I’m glad it had so wait for you and you remembered it and you use it to whatever benefit you needed it. And if I can do that again, please let me know so that I can help you again. Yeah, which is interesting.

Yeah, that’s happened to be and I’m like wow that was really smart.

So is that how you learned how to network just by observing people or was it. Did somebody actually teach you.

Maybe inadvertently teacher taught me, meaning, lead by example, perhaps, where I was able to watch. So I don’t think like somebody started took me aside and said oh here, let me show you how to network, because I think I came to a little bit more organically, but I definitely think that it’s a, it’s a learned it can, it’s a learned behavior. It’s a, it’s a behavior that you actually can practice and get better at. As you, as you feel more comfortable and feel more self assured as you think about what your why is and why you actually are doing what you’re doing. And then you never really know where that can take you because that really then enables you to the sky’s the limit on who you can meet how you can meet them. But I did get more refined in the way that I network. And what I mean by that is, I, I’m more purposeful that if I haven’t talked to somebody in a while, I will reach out again. If I haven’t, you know, if I, if I see them on my LinkedIn feed for example and I hadn’t seen them in a long time on my LinkedIn feed, I will literally send a note and say oh my gosh it was so nice to see you pop up on my feed today was nice to see your smiling face I hope things are well, and that’s actually, like, again, a reconnection of networking, but I’m not really, I have no purpose, I have no need, but they might have a need and just being able to reconnect again, sort of opens that door to have another conversation, if, if so needed. But then it doesn’t make me also feel that when I go to my network. It’s so long between the time that I’ve spoken to my network that then it feels like I go to my network when I need something and that’s not always true. That’s not always the way I invest in my network so that when they need something from me, they don’t feel awkward coming to me, but I also do it to the other way so that when I needed the other perspective, I don’t feel awkward going to them.

I think that’s great. It’s nurturing like, you know, making sure that you’re still connected but you don’t have to have these long conversations with people it’s just that’s what I love about LinkedIn it, it allows you these like brief networking connections right. So what do you think some of the benefits of networking are.

Oh, me the benefit is, you know, just this learning and being able to meet people that you know I would have never met. Otherwise, I, I think to myself oh my role allows me to meet, you know, interesting people and, And my roles enable me to talk to interesting people. And that’s true, but that’s true about everybody, every anybody’s role, everybody’s role, I mean you probably do your real estate business and you’re, you probably meet tons of interesting people that you might not have ever come across. And that’s like, that’s the beauty of the business you’re in, well that’s true about anybody, regardless of what industry they’re in, they all have some very unique way that if they’re interested in another industry they’re interested in, like, I don’t know anything from gardening to, you know, mergers and acquisitions to like doesn’t really matter. They can really find people that just have a common interest through working together so I think what I can learn what I can take away is perspective. I, it helps me again if I go back to some of my keywords, it helps me grow my empathy, because I can really walk like walk a mile I can really appreciate where the other person is coming from when I learn a little bit more about them, and that gives me perspective, that helps me in my business, it helps me with my daughter, helps me with my partner relationships. It helps me in my relationships in general, and I find it makes me more interesting, because I have a broader perspective of topics, because they’re things that are just not in my, you know, perhaps wheelhouse, but they become a part of my interest because of my interest in people and what they do.

Uh huh. I think that’s, that’s great because a lot of people don’t realize that it’s more about finding out about the other person as opposed to talking about yourself. Right, totally, like you said it just broadens the perspective that you have. Yes. So that brings me to the next question What do you think of some of the mistakes people make when it comes to networking.

I think probably anybody that you talked to about networking, maybe comes up with this one as well because I think it’s it’s a, it’s a pitfall that you can get yourself into meaning you have a purpose. You go in with a purpose, and unless you get done that particular thing, you are, you’re, you’re maybe don’t think it’s worth it, or you don’t think that you’ve spent your time, and, and that I think is setting you up for disappointment, one. And that might make it harder for you to go back to it, too. I think I have seen and witnessed. People who try too hard to, to network right so people who try too hard to make connection, because I think what you can really need to take away from it is that not everybody is meant to be, is meant to be in your network, and that’s okay. And that’s okay. It doesn’t mean that they’re not good people, it doesn’t mean that they’re not interesting, they’re not they don’t have their own value, but that might not be just a great connection inside your network, and that’s all right. So I think this idea that everything has to work, it always has to click it has to have some sort of outcome, all the time. I think that’s setting you up for disappointment, and, ultimately, it might come across this in genuine as being like, at the end, it doesn’t, I don’t know that it really helps you or the other person.

Yeah I know, I, I’ve seen that at so many events that I go to, you know, people, they just kind of walk into a room and they don’t really try to find out about it or they just you know pass along the business cards and stuff like that and it just doesn’t seem to work. Speaking of events like how, how do you choose where to network Do you do you just network because it’s through events, Or is it other ways through LinkedIn like what’s your best way and on top of that, like, how do you choose an event. If that is the way you network.

So, I would say, I actually don’t network at events. I actually don’t go to an event to network, that’s generally, I generally don’t use events as networking places, mainly because I am mainly because when you’re full, when you’re fully employed. I’m not sure. There’s a large portion of people who don’t spend time nurturing their network and I think that that’s problematic, but their argument is they’re, they’re working, they’re employed they’re busy they’re, you know they’ve got all sorts of things going on so they don’t you know they don’t take as much care or put as much care into their networking, and I think that that’s a problem because when they need it, then there’ll be hard pressed to sort of go back to it, however, so I’m not sure I spent enough, like I looked at events as a place that I would network. I use, I use LinkedIn as a place to network, significantly it’s probably the place that I do the most networking is absolutely LinkedIn. And it’s, it’s effective for me because I read a lot and so much we sort of find interesting things. And then I tap into my perspective or what I think about a topic and then I usually engage, so I can leave a comment or like, and then it helps me either see who else is there, and then I realized, Oh, look at that, there’s two other people in my network that are like looking at the same thing that’s so interesting. I wonder why. Next time I talk to them I say hey you know I was. Yeah, if it was it’s in close proximity and I remember but if it was the next day and I would say to them, Hey, I saw you actually liked that article on, you know, gender bias, you know, wasn’t that interesting from the Harvard Business Review, yeah that’s so interesting, okay and then all of a sudden we have this conversation about a next thing I know, this particular person is running an event that’s happening and I’m saying, oh that’s so interesting, you need a speaker I have this great person who could actually, and on and on, then it goes right so I think that, you know, having something that I have to offer that person. At the time, you know, and I really think about that, then I, that’s the way that I use LinkedIn to to network, probably most prevalently. But, but events, is a good place to network. I just, especially over the last, obviously two years, I’ve now gotten out of practice, I’ll have to think about how I would re engage in event networking, like at event networking.

Yeah I think that’s so interesting, because a lot of people think networking is events right, and you’ve kind of just dispelled that myth because you do it mostly through LinkedIn and just connecting. So I think that’s an important point to share with people because they think that they always have to go on event and like schmooze and all that, but it’s not, it’s really just connecting with people commenting, liking their posts, and then following up with something that they might have posted it, I, I’ve also found the same thing it’s one of the greatest ways to network and I think you’re missing out if you’re not on LinkedIn. To tell you the truth. Do you get a lot of, I mean you’ve been in very senior roles during your career. I assume that you get a lot of messages from students and sometimes it can get overwhelming, how do you handle something like that where you, you maybe like don’t know the person, you know, you obviously wish them well but you’re just overwhelmed and you’re pressed for a time.

I long ago made it a bit of a mantra for me that I give back to everybody, you know, regardless of if they’re asking me for time, in terms of, you know, especially if it’s a job seeker, of course, because my background, I have a lot of people who are job seekers or people who were students coming out of like MBA programs etc that wanted to know, how do you start a business, how do you, you know, I need to become a senior leader or how do you, whatever that was, yes. Now somebody selling something to me that’s different, so I’ll rephrase. I’ll rephrase. Getting back to everybody. So in selling something that that is much more particular about but if somebody wants to ask me something or they, they’re in need of something, and they want some advice or whatever, that I make, I make a point, those I always get back, and if I’m not the person which sometimes I can’t be that person. I generally give them somebody else that they would be interesting to talk to. And, and so I feel like it’s my responsibility to at least help them with another step. Even if I can’t be the step or what they need at that particular time. I’m really trying hard to say well, you know what, I can’t do it, but you know I could talk to my business partner and see if he could do it or you know, Hey, I see you’re really talking you’re really interested in, you know something around STEM, well that’s not my area of expertise, however I have several people in my network that are into STEM, maybe I could connect you to somebody there and then yes okay and then I make a connection and I’m at least providing some value because I feel like that’s my responsibility. And if I, if I want people to do it for me, it’s been up, I have to do it all the time for them, that’s like work of the given take of the relationship of the connection right. So I feel like it’s, it’s the Pay It Forward, and it’s the, I don’t know, good karma that you put out in the world. Because people need help, and unless somebody takes the time how do they get better. You know,

that’s a great point, it can get really overwhelming though because sometimes, so many. But, yeah, that’s great. It also feels great when you help other people, right,

it’s, it’s my favorite thing honestly to speak now. It’s like, I think it comes, if I really go back in my life I can think of, I can associate it to like when I give people gifts or like the Christmas time why I love Christmas so much because when I give people gifts I just love buying for them thinking about what they like, what I know about them, and how much they’re going to, like, or be happy and feel good about what I do, and that makes me feel good, just watching them makes me feel good about that so if I translate that into my business, you know, helping somebody come to a solution on their own, you know, just by asking questions listening, Being curious about them, you know, making sure that they have what they need, and then they go out and do something amazing, I think, oh my gosh, like, That’s so great. I, if I had any small piece to play in that I, that’s, that’s more reward than I could have ever, you know, asked for and so for me that’s, that’s the giving part that makes the part of networking, so much easier for me.

And I think that’s what makes you such a good networker, right, because you’re so willing to give, and you’re open I think that’s, that’s a wonderful trait to have. So let’s switch it up a bit, I want to talk about gender issues you know who the president of lean in Canada. What have you seen as the greatest difficulties women face in building developing or utilizing their network, even

I, it’s a great question Spener because I think men and women just inherently approached situations differently. And that’s not, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not a generalization it’s it’s it’s proven that women leaders as example, you know approach problems in decision making and problem solving differently than men. So it would stand to reason that men and women approach, networking or thinking about networking differently as well in my opinion, and I think that some of the challenges is this hierarchy or box, or thinking around the way women should behave the way women should come across, how they use their assertiveness or their independence. And so I think that that still is a bit of a challenge, depending on who you are networking with so who your audience is. I think that that is, I think that can be difficult, more difficult or can be a challenge for women. I think what, what’s the beauty of women’s ability to network and how they think about networking, or how they come to it. Again, I don’t want to generalize, but if they come to it as more of a connection base, and more of a relationship or a longer term relationships, women tend to build community, you know, women tend to come together for community there tend to be looking for community there, they tend to be, you know, wanting to develop longer, I mean yes I can, I can create transactional relationships where, you know, we were just talking about you need something I need something yes okay and that happens inside my network, but I generally, you know, I generally am looking because I want to feel a part of something I’m generally looking because I’m meeting people who are, you know that can help push my thinking or think like me or who you can help me. You know, do I have another perspective so I think women who, who come to networking for connection, and for community that’s that plays a different role in the way you network, and the way you use your network. And then, how often you maybe go out to your network or how often you leverage your network which I was tend to say is, is very different than men.

Despina Zanganas  0:10  

Uh huh. I mean, that was one of the things that I loved about lean in to see people unfortunately you know there’s no events right now but just online events, but you would see people meet at these events, and then they would come back together and hang out together and they obviously created these these connections and these groups you would see them consistently, and it’s very different than what you would see. I don’t you know I just a general event kind of thing like there was that warmth and that’s what I really loved about that connection and how women network differently than men. Yes sir.

Angela Payne  0:49  

The only thing I would say and I have actually seen this I’ve witnessed this very often. When you asked me about, you know, students or, you know, young women coming into the workforce that, you know asked want to talk or wanted to think about or some advice or whatever that was. And, and I always, I always sort of felt. Again, I don’t want to generalize and not always, for me, I felt sometimes that they didn’t want to ask that they didn’t want to, they didn’t want to say. So, you know, the conversation was a very nice conversation. And it was very interesting and I love learning about them, but what I tried to make sure that we left with is I always ask the question if the person has not asked me what I can do to help them. I have literally said, Okay, I’ve enjoyed chatting with you, but what is it that you need. Yeah, because I always encourage people, boys and girls, men and women alike. But sometimes, especially women, to say to be very deliberate about what if they need something to say what they need, and you know if you’re asking me for my time. Well I am interested in you and your, what you have going on. I’ve given you my time assuming that you need something from me, and I’m by virtue of giving you the time, I know you’re going to ask me for something, and that’s okay. I’m ready for that. That’s why I took the meeting, right, but, but then if you don’t come to the table and you don’t ask me, I feel like that’s a missed opportunity that you have to actually to actually ask, especially if you’re going to a senior person that you, they have given you their time so I’ve often encouraged to literally say okay what is it that you need from me and then and then it comes out, but it’s like in the last five minutes, and I’m kind of like, well, we could have done this at the beginning and I would encourage you next time to sort of frame up what your ask is, at the beginning so that then the person can help you and figure out ways to help you, because I’ve always said, this has been out that honestly, you know, if I provide the time or anybody provides you the time they’re willing. So use that willingness but you can’t make it hard for them. They, you know, they’re not going to get off the phone and say, Oh, I’m going to spend the next hour trying to help this person know tell me exactly what you need and I’ll tell you whether or not I can help you. And if I can’t. I’ll tell you I can’t, and if I can, all refer you I’ll quickly send the note I’ll quickly make a connection, whatever that is. And then you got what you needed, I was able to do that, and when we go so I would always encourage you know saying what you need, if it’s, if it’s that you need something at that particular time.

Despina Zanganas  3:36  

Uh huh. You know, I’ve heard that before. A lot of people say, women tend to do this little dance right they don’t really they don’t ask, they’ll just hopefully you’ll figure it out. But I think the greatest point is, is just make the ask right, It saves time people will appreciate it, and you’ll get what you want out of, out of the situation for sure. I think that’s such a key point. Do you have a specific networking story, or has something ever happened to you that was just such a great networking experience.

Angela Payne  4:13  

Yeah, so I, I have several. And I was thinking about one, and it’s actually, it’s actually funny because it makes me laugh every time and in it and because of it. It has enabled me to have this great connection so I you know I don’t know. I didn’t know there are many Angelo’s in my life. Angela’s while not, not that it’s not a, you know, a common name but it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s actually, I don’t, I didn’t know any other Angelo’s in my life, and I was on LinkedIn, and a woman that I used to work with. She used to work with me at an old age, she commented about doing virtual coffee connections. And this was years ago when virtual coffee connections before COVID wasn’t actually really like a thing right so this was I don’t know, three or four years ago, and she was commenting about how she had this virtual coffee connection. And I was thinking well that’s I read it on my feed and I was like, that’s so cool and I know her and I thought oh well that’s so interesting that that’s very interesting. And she said, you know, other people who would be interested in this coffee connection. And of course me I was like, Yes, I type in the box and I say yes i Yeah, and there’s a woman whose name is Angela pops on the chat, and also says, Oh my gosh, that would be cool. So I seen that her name is Angela, and of course right away the spin I say, what what are the chances of an Angela so I think her on a message. And back on a reply and say, oh my gosh, to Angela’s, we must have coffee together. She was the VP of HR for a company in the West Coast, NBC, and I didn’t know her, she was not in my network, she was a connection of a connection. So, this was like to Angeles so I make the appointment to do it I sent her a Starbucks gift card, so that we can have coffee and I tell her that I’ll have a cup of coffee and that we’ll have a coffee chat, so we get on, we both have a mug of coffee which was a great way to have a video call we work on 30 minutes. And I learned that she’s an author, and that she wrote a book on on job search, and I happened to be at the time at Monster, and of course I was in that business and didn’t even really realize that when we were when we first started talking, so she’s an Angela, I’m an Angela, that’s so interesting, we become, you know, sort of like oh wow we have lots in common, actually we find out we have lots in common, although we’re not in the same business she works for our financial services company, we, we like each other, we think, Oh that’s so cool how can we help each other. So then she, she tells me a couple of days later, you’re not going to believe this, but I have this other Angela, that you definitely want to meet because how is it possible that we could have three Angela’s, so she introduces me to this Angela who works in oil and gas in Calgary now, who’s an Angela. So, that’s so interesting, and I say to her, you’re never gonna believe who I met at an HR function. Her name is Angela, she’s the CEO of a trucking, organization, and I thought I should introduce you, so there’s a fourth, Angela. I actually go to a different event, and I need an Angela with a double A. And so now we’re five Angela’s. And I put all these ads was together and have introduced all these Angeles just based on this, like silly little thing, but these women are all very different, all in their in all different industries, none of them have like, it would appear anything in common. At the top of, you know their backgrounds. But, and now I refer business to one Angela to another Angela, to you know to do work together we’ve done. And so this group of five or six Angela’s now, we have essentially broke up this little network of who wouldn’t want to do business with an Angela.

Despina Zanganas  8:27  

I love that story that has to be my favorite networking connections. So if you know any Angela’s. I will pass it on for sure. That’s hilarious. You know I’ve come across some people, you know, call this feeder before and I never actually thought to, to reach out to them but maybe I’ll try to do the same thing, you know, that will lead you. Absolutely, I mean one of the things that is funny about my name is that you know any Greek person would know it, even though it’s just half Greek but yeah like yesterday I was on the phone with somebody and I was actually saying my name Despina like the proper way to pronounce it is Despina, but the woman on the phones are laughing at me and she’s like, why would you say it like that. She’s like, I’m Greek, I know that pronounce it, and we just started having this conversation about how people pronounce my I mean I honestly don’t care if people call me to speak, because that’s the way I introduce myself right yeah it’s it there’s something about our names. It’s actually another point about finding connection with other people, What do you have in common, you know, and it just connects you and it makes you kind of this unique clique, which I think is totally great. I love that story I absolutely love it.

Angela Payne  9:46  

Honestly, four years later, those, those women, and just recently during COVID Angela introduced me to another Angela which was, she’s the CEO of a company in BC. And so that’s the sixth Angela, but essentially now the all that group, whenever we need something, we actually come back to each other, because it’s just got this now. I don’t know this feel good connection, and it might not even be something that’s in their wheelhouse or in my wheelhouse, but I would do anything to help those Angeles based on this funny small little connection of that right so if they asked me for anything, I’m there so if they’re listening to this podcast, they, they, they know that they can ask and that I’m there. So, yes,

Despina Zanganas  10:36  

I love that I love that. So, anybody who listens to my show knows about the six degrees of separation question for anybody that doesn’t know it’s it’s the concept that everyone in the world is basically six degrees of separation from from one another. Is there anyone out there that you’ve actually always wanted to meet and the reason I ask is, I wonder if anybody in my network actually knows that person and can connect you.

Angela Payne  11:05  

So I have listened to part two, so I know that you asked this question so I was thinking. Yes, so I was thinking, Okay, what, and I had so many, but I was trying to think of ones that I like were actually in the realm of possibility. Yeah. So, I threw my work at lean in, I, you know, two of my favorite all time books may bounce back up to my all time favorite books is Sheryl Sandberg book Lean In, which of course I adore and have like several copies that are dog eared and highlighted and everything else. But I have another book like that, who is another author that I absolutely love, who is a coach who I’ve followed for many many years and had a new book come out on how women rise. And that’s Sally Hansen. So Sally is like somebody that I’ve seen on, you know, podcasts and she has, you know she’s She coaches women in leadership. And this book that she wrote, which is sort of the off shot of Marshall Goldsmith book on how, you know, leaders, rise was her take on women and how women rise and how different women are in the way they approach different things, different, you know how they network, how they, you know how they express themselves how they assert themselves how they show empathy, all these things, and I just love her work, and I’ve, I’ve not met her and she would be like somebody that I would like love to have a chat with about what she thinks about certain things and how she actually manages to coach women to really stand in their own light, and that would be awesome, so she’s she’s she’s my lady.

Despina Zanganas  12:55  

So, I’ve heard of the book I think actually you’re the one who actually told me about the book, but what is her name, I didn’t realize what her name was so can you repeat her name’s Sally.

Angela Payne  13:03  

And I’m, I want to make sure I, someone can correct me if I’m pronouncing this wrong but houses Helgesen a h e l g e s e n. And she, she is, she does a lot of work with Marshall Goldsmith, who is a renowned coach, he was the other person on my list that the both of them are super interesting to me, Sally has a special place because she deals specifically with some of the mental models that women carry around about leadership, that I think are like so spot on and if you get a chance to read her book if you haven’t read how women rise. Oh my gosh, like literally you’re like, with your highlighter in your hand, you’re

Despina Zanganas  13:44  

glad.

Angela Payne  13:44  

Oh my gosh, I totally have done that before and oh my I never really thought about that. So she’s like definitely not high on my list.

Despina Zanganas  13:55  

Okay, I think she’s in my audible, you know wants list so I’m gonna, we’re gonna actually go by it after this podcast. But anybody who’s listening to the podcast knows Sally, please reach out and let’s figure out how we can connect to Angela and Sally that would be amazing. So before we close out, do you have any final tips that you want to share with the audience or anything you’d like to reiterate about networking.

Angela Payne  14:23  

If I could kind of distill down a couple of points, I would say, think about think about why you’re actually networking, you know, because it will take a lot of pressure off you actually if you really cannot take your plate. You know what you need and why you need it and why you do it, because it’s not it doesn’t need to be thought about the same way for everybody, it can it can look like many different things so don’t be so hard on yourself about, oh I have to you know do this I have to have three connections I have to network this. Think about how you come to it and work it in more as a natural way that you already there conduct your business, the places you already go the ways you already you know some of the habits or rituals, you already have and see if you can fit it any place inside of there without wholesale having to, you know, put a whole new mechanism in place so that would be one, two would be, Make sure you ask, if you really are, you depending on the type of networking you’re doing so for example if you’re asking somebody for the time because you want to ask them a question or you, you know, you try to find something. Start there, ask the question, make sure that you can actually, you know, get that in, not do it at the very very tail end and last two minutes. And because maybe people are not like me and won’t actually say so what is it that you want. But, you know you don’t want to be holding all that till the end because you’re actually just waiting for a place to put it in and it doesn’t really feels like it doesn’t really feel like it’s authentic in that way, so I’d say, you know get rigged up front about what what it is that you’re looking for and what you need to ask. And then I would say go into it with a thought, if you can, about team your mindset about what is it that I can give to the person time resource, a referral. Another connection, you know, a thought, a different point of view, and just be really just be really honest about that, and it may work and it may not and that’s okay, because I think at the end of the day, what, what you want to walk away from is not feeling like, oh my god I’ll never do that again. I’ll never try and network again, like that’s the last thing you want to place you want to be so I’d say, you know, make sure that you, you if you think about it or can think about it from that mindset you have a greater shot of feeling like, Okay, I was able to help somebody. And that’s good, that’s, that’s, that was my purpose today, that’s what I was trying to accomplish and if I was able to help somebody today. That’s, that’s the good I’ve put out in the world and that’s okay for me.

Despina Zanganas  17:05  

You know those are three amazing tips and yeah I’m definitely going to put those into use for sure. So, before we close for people who want to get in touch with you, where can they find you,

Angela Payne  17:17  

well they can definitely find me on LinkedIn. Angela pain, they can follow my company at leading HR. So we have a LinkedIn page as well so either Angelo paying directly or at my leading HR page for sure. Or they can reach out to me directly Angela at lead HR super easy, Angela athlete HR comm. I’m happy to, you know if you need something from me or I can help you with somebody that you think that I might be able to help you be, I’m happy to try and do it. And I encourage you to look inside my network on LinkedIn, and if you see somebody that is of interest to you. I’m happy to see if I can help make a connection for you or help you get what you need. And it would be my pleasure to speak.

Despina Zanganas  18:06  

That’s awesome. Thank you so much and I just want to thank you so much for being here. We talked about you having it on my show for a while now, and I’m so glad he said yes, and I had a wonderful time. So thank you so much.

Angela Payne  18:17  

Oh, Thanks so much and it was really nice to spend some time with you and hopefully, if your listeners got anything out of that, they’re, they’re revved up and ready to go to like give back and figure out who their next who their next connection is

Despina Zanganas  18:33  

for sure. Thank you.

Thanks for tuning in to Connect and Bloom — a podcast that empowers women to master the art of networking and make life-changing connections. Got a burning question about networking? Share it below, or shoot me an email at despina@connectandbloom.com If you want to explore this topic further, head on over to the Connect and Bloom website, follow me on Instagram or Facebook, or — if you haven’t already — subscribe to this podcast. Be sure to connect ~ and bloom ~ with me again in our next episode!

Angela’s Links​​

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelapayneleedhr

LinkedIn Group: https://www.linkedin.com/company/leedhr

Website: https://www.leedhr.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/angpayne

Books mentioned in this episode

How Women Rise
by Sally Helgesen and Marshall Goldsmith

LEAN IN: WOMEN, WORK, AND THE WILL TO LEAD
by Sheryl Sandberg