Episodes

In Episode 2, I’m excited to feature a badass woman who came to Canada when she was 18 years young. Knowing no one, Sadaf Virji had to learn how to network — fast. Now she helps newcomers to Canada integrate by teaching them how to (net)work it. Sadaf is really passionate about helping newcomers build this invaluable skill, and I think that’s one of the main things that drew me to her: our shared passion when it comes to helping others make life-changing connections. In today’s episode, we’ll be chatting about:

• why networking is so critical for newcomers
• the importance of making connections outside of your ethnic community
• how to show up when you feel like you don’t belong
• recognizing our unconscious biases
• why introverts sometimes have the upper hand

Show Transcript

Each Connect and Bloom episode is transcribed using Otter.ai. While our team is busy correcting typos where possible, it’s inevitable that some mistakes will be missed. (We’re only human!) With this in mind, please forgive any errors when reviewing transcripts, and feel free to report any issues here.

Despina Zanganas  0:24  

Hey everyone, thanks so much for being here. My Guest today is Sadaf Virji. 

Let me tell you a bit about Sadaf  Sadaf is an educator, speaker, and facilitator with a passion for networking. Moving from a long career in philanthropy & sponsorship, Sadaf joined the fast-paced world of saas in 2019 to focus on her strengths – building relationships and helping people network. Sadaf also teaches part-time in the Faculty of Business at Humber College. 

Sadaf, thank you so much for joining me today!

Sadaf Virji  1:20  

Thank you. I am so thrilled to be here. I cannot wait to start talking about all things networking.

Despina Zanganas  1:27  

That’s awesome. So why don’t we kick it off with this question? How did we originally connect?

Sadaf Virji  1:32  

Oh my gosh. So, I had just read the Lean In book, and I became obsessed when I looked it up online. I found there was a Lean In in Toronto, and I was like oh my god I have to go. And I showed up with a girlfriend of mine, and about halfway through the event like oh my god I know that lovely lady. I was like what who, what, you know someone here? And so that’s how we got introduced. We have a common friend, and it just you know the rest of history. You introduced me to Christina, at Lean In Canada who I started working with, and then I started volunteering and oh my god

Despina Zanganas  2:01 

Yeah and then the rest is history. We connect all the time and it’s been great. So tell me a bit about your business and the work you do, and how networking comes into play with that.

Sadaf Virji  2:23  

Hmm. So, first of all, networking is like, for me, it’s not even just about business it’s about very much like how I build personal relationships. I don’t use the word networking, as a business connection. When I do my networking presentations I always redefine networking for everyone. And for me, it is the art of human connection. And so there’s personal networking and professional networking and you know it’s you show up who you are, where you are. And it doesn’t change based on personal and professional so I look at networking as making friends, to be honest. And I currently work at a company called 10,000 coffees, and we are a networking platform that helps match people up based on their career goals and interests. But far before that I got interested in networking and started to talk to young people about networking because I realized that it was such a huge part of how one can be successful in this world, and it’s something that I hadn’t been taught when I was young and so I like to talk about networking, in the context of how to be successful in life, as general. And this is one of the topics that I use when I speak with schools and in companies and here today.

Despina Zanganas  3:55  

That’s awesome. So you know you and I have talked so many times about the passion that you have for teaching networking skills to newcomers because you know as an immigrant yourself, you had to learn this skill so why do you feel that it’s so important to help newcomers?

Sadaf Virji  4:14  

So, you know Despina, I strongly believe that. And I think it can be widely accepted that success is defined differently in different parts of the world based on culture, religion just different language, even success in North America is different from the UK where we speak the same language and culture can be quite similar in many ways, but what happens is when you grow up in a particular society or community. By default, you learn the skills required to be successful in that environment. So just by naturally, you know, going to school as a young kid, you know, the way that you’re parented. What’s important to the community and to your families, those skills get embedded in you. And so when you move from wherever you are to let’s say to come to Canada like I did when I was 18, you are, because success is defined differently in Canada you’re most times missing some skills required to be successful in a Canadian context. Unfortunately, I don’t think there A, are enough resources for newcomers to help them integrate entirely. And B, I think there’s not enough focus on the why it’s so important. So, I have seen several workshops for that are that are around to help newcomers integrate into the Canadian context, right. And it’s, it’s, it’s telling you what to do. And it’s missing the why it’s missing, what’s really necessary so if we take a step back and think about this for a second. There are a couple of things to look at one as newcomers, we walk into this country with absolutely zero networks. And whether our Canadian counterparts know it or not, whether they leverage or not, or understand it or not, they have an inbuilt network by just by growing up in this country, you have neighbours, you have parents who have jobs who know people, you have friends at, you know, at every level of schooling that you’re in. And I find that the differentiator here is when you’re able to have a default network. And when you’re kind of lost is, if you do high school, at least in Canada.

Because also what happens with people who are young and or at that age of high school below before you get to university that you can you won’t be here alone, you’ll be here with your family, typically, typically someone comes in, comes here on their own, and having a family in itself is one thing that’s really important for newcomers. And if you don’t have that who come into the country alone It’s even more necessary to think about how the skills that you need. So if we go back to the skills around success. One of the things that you need to be successful in a Canadian context is understanding how to network both for personal reasons and professional reasons because you we need a support system to survive on the daily right, as you know, we’re human beings we need to connect with other people, we need to feel like we belong. After food, water, shelter and the basic needs that Maslow’s pyramid of hierarchy says what motivates human beings is a sense of belonging, a sense of belonging can only come from interaction or in relation with another person with community. Right. Why does religion work so well? Because it says you give me a ABC and we take you in as one of us. We say this is my tribe, I need my friends. All of this is because you are able to be who you are, you’re accepted for who you are and that is what the sense of belonging is, if that is required for human survival. So on a personal level networking is super important for newcomers because they come here without that support system and leave their support system. Secondly, to get a job, if people don’t know who you are. They don’t trust, they don’t know anything about you. And that’s why networking works when it comes to a professional setting. That’s why networking helps to get us jobs is because you’ve built a relationship with someone and what you’ve done with that relationship is you build trust. And so, if you know me. There’s a higher chance that you’re going to give me something that you need done. Right, and building those relationships are so important for better. and, and more opportunities that unfortunately newcomers need to make up quite a bit in a short amount of time.

Despina Zanganas  9:08  

Yeah, I think that’s an absolutely great point because, you know, I never really thought about it, the people that I knew from high school are people that you know we didn’t see each other for maybe 10 years but you know they’ve maybe seen something that I’ve done and connected and then we’ve done some business together and you’re right like newcomers really don’t have that. One of the things that occurred to me while I was listening to you talk, it occurred to me that one thing that newcomers do, is they tend to stick to their own I see that in, you know me and the Greek community or the French Canadian community I’m half Greek half French. We tend to network and I think that might be a bit of a problem too because we stick to what we know. What do you think about that how do newcomers to Canada, get out of that, what do you do to help them with that?

Sadaf Virji  10:04  

That’s such a good point Despina because you know, I used to think about communities like if I went to Chinatown in Toronto, that, you know, you cannot. You don’t need to speak a lick of English to get around in that community, and You know when I started to look at communities like that and what you’re talking about. We are attracted to things that we understand and that is simply biology, it is our brain. You hear this right that we connect with people who have something in common with, you’ll see that everywhere. That’s why, you know, a lot of big business deals are still happening on the golf course with old white men. 

Despina Zanganas 10:45

Yeah, we’ve heard that a lot

Sadaf Virji  10:48  

Our brain is designed to protect us. That’s what it’s supposed to do, and it is. It has a files and files of blueprints that tell us what to do in certain situations, or what to think about certain people. And when we are introduced to something new, there isn’t a blueprint for that in the file, and the brain is like, oh my god. Stay away, danger, danger.  And this is why you’ll see young, we often say young people have no fear, they say what they want. They’re much more bold, it’s because they’re still building the blueprint, you know, they’re still creating their brain is understanding these things, and our brain is lazy. Am I allowed to swear? Our brain is lazy as fuck. Like our brain is so lazy right it doesn’t want to do the hard work, and so it just says to you, don’t do that. And so that’s why automatically when you see someone who looks like you or dresses like you. Sounds like you, or does something that you like, or you’re doing as well. We’re attracted to same same. Now you can rewire your brain. We all know that. And it’s a different way of looking at it but it is extremely important to also embed in, when we do our trainings and try to help newcomers and talk about networking. like I mentioned earlier, I talked about personal networking building a support system and then networking for success and career etc. You will employ some level of the same same strategy in your personal networking when you’re building a personal support system because you want to feel like you belong. Right, absolutely. understood. But when you look at building networks for your professional career. We need to push past the discomfort, and the fear of the unknown, which is what your brains doing when it’s like, oh, I’m gonna go talk to this person because I don’t see anything that I can connect to. Right. The second part of your question is how do we help newcomers right so there’s, there’s a couple things. The first is definitely training, a difference in how we’re training and supporting newcomers and what the information we’re giving them is, but then the other thing is also developing a really thick skin because showing up to events and workplaces, where you don’t feel like you belong, or you don’t think that other people look like you, or that you don’t fit in, for whatever reason, takes a lot of courage and a lot of it’s a lot of hard work and what you have to do if I was to tell a newcomer, how to overcome this is to keep showing up because what you’re doing in that situation is, you’re normalizing who you are in an environment where you might be a minority. Right. So if, if that brown person or black person or person of color, or indigenous person keeps showing up at an event that has more than 70% white people or similarly if you look at gender. It starts to normalize that person or that kind of person right for the people who are in the majority. And that’s, like, that’s really what we talk about when we talk about diversity and inclusion. Right, yeah. But it’s hard. It’s hard. It’s hard to keep showing up when you feel like you’re not welcome. But I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it I’ve seen it at Lean In which is you know where we met, I seen it at in the workplace. I used to before COVID I used to salsa dance regularly, and I’ve seen it in in the salsa community because you know so dancing is a universal language for so many people but sometimes you have no social feeling super awkward dance and you show up. And how would they create social groups within this interesting environment, every single time you just have to keep showing up and not worry about, you know, I don’t fit in right now but I will one day.

Despina Zanganas  15:09  

Yeah. You know, I think that comes into play for newcomers but I think it comes into play for almost everyone because everybody feels awkward coming to a networking event. Right. I mean, especially for newcomers. That was one of the things I was always concerned of when I planned events, you know like, how do you actually make sure everybody feels welcome, you know, I know I always went out of my way to introduce different people to each other that never, they didn’t really know each other right. Do you have any suggestions for how to make people feel a bit more welcome at these events?

Sadaf Virji  15:48  

You know, when I used to go to the Lean In events, and I was volunteering and I was helping you will be able if you take a minute to sit back and observe what’s happening in the room, you’ll be able to see who is comfortable networking, maybe who’s a natural extrovert, and who perhaps trying this, maybe for the first time, or is a bit uncomfortable with the process. And some of that is usually body language, and, you know, maybe in a conversation too when you feel like the questions are coming from a checklist, as opposed to a conversation. You know that’s back and forth. And I think, you know, I remember you Despina making connections at these events and, you know, with people like you who I have to say, I’m very grateful for, to who never I never, you know, whenever you chatted with me. I never felt like I you know I didn’t belong I never felt like I was an odd one out, or that this was not a place that I could be welcome, because you took the time to introduce me to somebody, or were, you know, always a beautiful smiling face and so, so if you’re able to introduce someone like you did amazing, but at the very least if you can give someone a warm smile, it makes them feel like you know that they’re being seen My biggest problem, early in my days when I was, you know, entering the, you know, corporate environment is, I was working at the National Ballet of Canada, and I was in the fundraising team. And if you can imagine the age range of our donor supporters are like 60 plus. And I remember having to talk to a lot of old white men. You know, the biggest takeaway from that is that they wouldn’t look me in the eye and talk to me I never felt seen by white men and till today I have trouble dating white men like I feel like they don’t see me. And it’s so important to just when you’re talking to someone even if you’re not a facilitator like you’re not able to like you making connections, helping someone feel warm and welcome in a space. If you can just when you look at them when you talk to them look them in the eye. They feel seen. It’s so powerful.

Despina Zanganas  18:25  

I think that’s an absolutely great point. I mean I think we forget that, you know when we enter a room we’re just in our own space and tend to not see what other people are feeling and interacting and experiencing at these events. So, yeah, go ahead.

Sadaf Virji  18:42  

I was gonna say one indicator is when someone’s on their phone more than they’re engaging with the people around. They’re either uncomfortable or they don’t want to be there, chances are they’re uncomfortable. And even if you aren’t comfortable, but putting that phone away and having that conversation with someone is so meaningful. Like, I think it least and so powerful goes so much so far in making a connection with that person.

Despina Zanganas  19:16  

Yeah, you know what I, what somebody told me it was actually my business coach who told me that she’s like if you ever go to an event alone and feel really nervous, hang out by the bar or hang out by the food table, because that’s where all the people that are alone hang out, you know, they’ve got to do something with their hands. So that’s the best way to start a conversation with somebody, you know I I remember going to an event once with a friend. And we made it our mission to talk to everybody who was there alone. And it, like how many people can we talk to here alone that you know are like super nervous. And you can see on their faces that they were so grateful for that, you know, it was. And it just made us feel really good and we got some connections out of it. 

Sadaf Virji  20:04  

I love that, I love that so much. Can we do that when COVID is done Despina?

Despina 20:14 

Yes, let’s do that

Sadaf Virji  20:17  

This is the best. Yeah.

Despina Zanganas  20:19  

So, um, you know you talked about how when he first came here, you found it really difficult. How did you actually learn how to network like did somebody teach you or is this all self-taught.

Sadaf Virji  20:31  

Such a good question because I often say that people. So I often equate networking to making friends right because. Forget about like the things people say you’re supposed to do, like, you know, ask these kinds of questions and people have like checklists and things like that fuck the checklist, throw it out. Have a conversation like you’re talking to somebody, and often enough, as adults we forget how to do this right, something that happened when we were kids and some of us don’t, you know, expand beyond that comfort zone of the friends that we had you know from when we were younger. But I, I was very shy. When I first came here to Canada and was for a very long time. I was an extrovert always, but I was very shy about connecting with people. And when I, you know, sometimes, like in my early 30s I was having these like this, I guess midlife, I don’t know quarter-life crisis, whatever. When you start evaluating what it is that you want out of life and where you’ve come and how did you end up here, and you know I started doing a lot of self-reflection and digging deep inside within myself to figure out who I was, from that process which I’m, you know, I think it’s still ongoing. I don’t think it’s ever never, it’s a never-ending thing. I was able to gain a lot of confidence, and I found confidence helped me a great deal. I didn’t have a coach, I didn’t have a mentor. I, to be honest, didn’t learn from anybody, but when I was able to get that confidence. I also somehow gained this natural curiosity. And that with the confidence that I gained helped me significantly in networking. And so if anyone wants to ask me, you know, very simply, please tell me what I can do to be a better networker is focus on yourself to understand who you are so you can get comfortable in your own skin and gain confidence, and then next so get freaking curious because it allows you to ask, thoughtful insightful questions, and in a conversational style, as opposed to that damn checklist that you get in every article about networking online. I can we can give you tips and tricks that is a, you know, a checklist, but it’s not actually going to help you make a meaningful true connection, right. So, you know, I’ve just learned a couple things about you, that you have are half Greek and half French Canadian and on another conversation. I want to learn all about how you were brought up because of that I’m so fascinated. How do you identify? Do you speak the language? I literally want to know everything now about that part of you, and it comes because we have, we have a curiosity I want to learn about your experience, right. This will help us make friends and build that those relationships.

Despina Zanganas  23:49  

Yeah you know what you’re saying, makes so much sense to me because especially as women you know we really need to connect first, you know, and this is, I’m obviously generalizing, but you know men tend to be like, okay, what’s the deal let’s, let’s get down to business whereas you know women really want to know who each other is and you know exactly like you said your background and I want to learn all that stuff and for women, it also has to be genuine you can’t just go out there and ask these questions and, you know, it feels fake when you’re just doing it for because people told you to do that right, you have to have genuine interest in these people. That actually brings me to my next question. So, how do you think men and women network differently?.

Sadaf Virji  24:37  

This is a very thought-provoking question, you know there is so much in this. I think that you have what you just said about women particularly wanting to make a connection makes a lot of sense to me. And I have seen this. Absolutely. When I would go to networking events I definitely found the men that I spoke to or more made, we made more surface-level connections with them and I was able to make a more, perhaps a deeper meaningful connection. What I noticed, made the difference or a difference for me as a woman of colour, is if I was talking to another person of colour. So if I was talking to someone who identified as a man, as a person of colour, or another immigrant. I was able to carry the conversation to a deeper level, due to shared experiences. And this goes back to the same same part, right, like connecting on something that’s. You can, you find similar. I also find, and I don’t know why for me race plays a role in it. Because when I think about it objectively it shouldn’t and in some ways, it makes me sad that it does, or at least it’s been my experience. And I mentioned to you I often don’t feel seen by white men. I found that men are also trained differently than women in general. There are, and you’ll you would have heard this right there’s a lot of men are generally primed differently in our society. Yes, absolutely. That’s the masculine energy there’s the boys don’t cry, boys will be boys all of that stuff that you hear. And part of that is having this very strong business, kind of, almost like a cutthroat business sense. And along in the, in the business world comes that networking. But I also find that it can be in a very narrow capacity, it can be only on the golf course, or at a basketball game or so. So for me as a woman, it was I find it. Traditionally fairly. I don’t have as much success connecting with men. In the same way. I think the question is how do we change that. How do we bridge this gap between men and women? And I think it goes back to a lot of what we hear, you know, when we were part of Lean In Despina about, including men in the conversation. And I’m just looking at this book that I’m sitting right here I don’t know if you’ve heard of this book,

Despina Zanganas  28:14  

No!  Every conversation counts. I’ve never heard of it.

Sadaf Virji  28:17  

I and I haven’t read it, I just bought it. And I’ll tell you something that you’re going to, I don’t know if you’re going to judge me but that’s okay. We’re friends. I bought it because it was a book about networking, written by a person of colour. And I wanted to understand what their take would be versus my go-to networking book is Never Eat Alone.

Despina Zanganas  28:43  

I know that’s mine too. I read that so many times. 

Sadaf Virji  28:48  

So many times right! Sorry and I’ve taken a tangent here but I’m almost moving conversation from gender to race because that is what my experience has been.

Despina Zanganas  28:57  

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So what do you think that we should do, do we join them, you know, to me, learn how to golf, and join them on the golf course, or do you know I mean a lot of people like basketball so that’s not exactly a great comparison but you know what do we do how do we connect with other people. And, you know, especially men who are right now still in control of the business world,

Sadaf Virji  29:32  

To answer your question, I think it’s interesting and I think it’s a, it’s going to take a little bit of time but this is how I would approach it  I think there is a group mentality that can sometimes overpower what people think individually. Right. And I think that if you were if I was a woman in a male-centric industry which I am. I think one on one connection with the right people can help build a sense of, of comfort. It’s like, so let’s put it this way. If you were a mid-level manager at an organization as a female, and the leadership is like 90% male. How do you network and get to know them, so that you’re, you know, we all know that real work should speak for you but sometimes it doesn’t.

Honestly, the path that I would take is to take one on one meetings with people and I would start with low-hanging fruit. Any, a man who’s a person of colour, for me, you know, a man who perhaps identifies outside of this, you know, straight white cisgender, you know, man. And I don’t think it’s about joining them. I don’t think it’s about learning how to golf. That would just be inauthentic right, I wouldn’t enjoy it. But there has to be other things that we can connect on, it’s because they don’t know who we are, they don’t know enough about us and we don’t know enough about them, it could turn out that they love eating Indian food. And, you know, you know, I come from the region and so I can help you know you connect on any number of things and I think that the rule is to still have. I think that the thing to do is to still have one on one conversations. Ask for those coffees. They won’t say no. Ask insightful thoughtful questions in those coffees. To start interesting conversations and sometimes with people it takes a really, really long time, with some people you’re like, Oh man, it’s like pulling teeth, they don’t want to talk but you know, and it’s like, but it is important to get to know people on a personal level I think. I personally feel, you know a lot of people will say just go to work and do your nine to five and that’s fine and you know clock out. I really don’t like that I like to get to know my bosses and everyone, and not necessarily because I’m hoping for the next promotion but the fact that they know you on a personal level will allow you, I think for a lot more opportunities, and it also makes your work a lot more enjoyable right

Despina Zanganas  32:39  

Now I want to discuss some, some ways but networking has actually been a positive, a really positive experience for you So, do you have any stories or has anything happened to you specifically where. Just networking has worked for you?

Yes, like networking has been such a huge part of my life. And I’ll tell you the story. Maybe about four years ago, I was scrolling through my LinkedIn and a friend of mine had posted a TEDx talk from a Toronto, they were a professor writer speaker, etc. I listened to the TEDx talk and I was just, I felt also moved. I was really connected, or really moved by their story, I was right touched. And I just felt a strong connection to them we had a similar background in terms of an immigrant upbringing similar education and I was just felt really connected so I reached out to them on LinkedIn and I said look I just want to say thank you for sharing your story on a public forum. Your story was amazing. I’m, you know, going to be following your career and wish you all the best. And they responded and you know we connected on different social media channels and we started following each other’s lives. And I learned through that, that they were writing a book. And so about a year later when the book came out, I bought it the day came out on Amazon and I read it. And the book again spoke to me deeply. I was very very moved by it. They were though a first-time writer and self-published. I felt that their editor didn’t do them justice. And, you know, I had an English degree and I thought okay well I’m just gonna take a red pen. I’m just gonna write stuff. And maybe, maybe it’ll be helpful. So I you know wrote my thoughts in the comments. God now when I do with it, you know, I was afraid. I didn’t want to offend them, no one asked me for my comments. But I really admired this person so much, and then I reached out to them and I said I’ve done this, can I send it to

you. And they said yeah, yeah, Okay, I sent the book with the red marks everywhere. With a box of cookies. And in about a week or two they wrote back to me and said my gosh I’m so grateful that you took the time to read it and put your thoughts and comments. 

And I was like, I was just so relieved that they weren’t offended and I, I was, I hope that it helped them, you know, I just wonder if they don’t know although maybe that’s a silly question but I that was what I was thinking. Couple months later they called me or they messaged me and said you know I’m doing a second print. And I’d like to put your name in the acknowledgments. Thank you. That’s so kind, it’s not what I was looking for that I just genuinely wanted you to succeed but I appreciate that. And from then on, you know, we would introduce each other sometimes to people we thought they, the other be interested in or. And this is all you know online. Except I was walking down the street one day and I, I saw them and I’m like, Oh my God. You know it’s me, we have this moment so random. And maybe six months later or something. Maybe a bit more. I had a message in my inbox, and LinkedIn on LinkedIn, with two job postings from the company I currently work at. And they said I know someone there. Are you interested? I’d put in a good word. And I applied for one of the jobs that I still had to do seven interviews to get through and get the job but I did and they didn’t even call it and ask for references. Yeah and you know the whole process might have taken about two years from the moment we first connected. We still connect on and off. You know, I didn’t reach out to them with the intention of anything except that I wanted the best for them and wanted them to know what an impact they’ve made on me with their content and their thoughts and we just built a relationship over time and I’m so grateful for that.

Despina Zanganas  37:29  

That’s so amazing you know there’s two things that I got from that. So, you know, first of all, it’s not doing anything with any kind of intention, right, like that’s the biggest thing about networking, you do something you share something with somebody and don’t expect anything in return. right it’s just the fact that you’re helping them, and people will remember that. The second point is, don’t expect something to come out of it immediately. You know you said it took two years, every single networking connection like I’m not sure if it’s every single one but I would say the majority of them did not come overnight. I didn’t go to a networking event and got a $100,000 deal the next day, that just doesn’t happen and I think people give up on networking and say that it doesn’t work because that’s what happens. That’s what they expect to happen. Whereas, no, it actually takes a long time, and it’s, you know, them introducing you to somebody who introduces you to somebody that’s really the power of networking it’s not just going to event and like, amazing things happen right after that right

Sadaf Virji  38:39  

So true. It’s so true. Yeah, time and time again I’ve seen that as well and I think a lot of young people particularly don’t always understand that. They think, Oh, I’m looking for a job, I’m gonna start networking right away. It takes time.

Despina Zanganas  38:54  

Yeah, and it doesn’t work. Now that we’ve been talking about all these, you know, networking events and all that. What do you think are the biggest misconceptions that people have about networking.

Sadaf Virji  39:06  

Oh my gosh. There are many one we’ve already talked about, right, when it comes to how soon you expect to see something from that relationship. So there’s a huge misconception people think it’s quite quick where it’s not. There’s also this thing, or belief that networking is only for extroverts.

Despina Zanganas  39:33  

It’s not.

Sadaf Virji  39:35  

It’s not, I don’t like that one. Actually, I mean I am an extrovert so yes it’s a part of my personality I love, I get energy from other people. But introverts I find sometimes can be even more successful than extroverts because sometimes I think extroverts need to be reined in probably the case with me, you know, like a little butterfly fluttering everywhere. And that’s how I thrive, but you know that’s just me. But I find introverts can sometimes be more strategic and more thoughtful, and they’re happy talking to maybe only one or two people at a networking event the whole evening, and they may have made a much stronger connection with those people than I talking to the 30 people I like to chat with you know. And just because introverts do better maybe one on one rather than in our group. But again, I think sometimes those more meaningful conversations, or connections happen one on one. So, I think, networking is probably actually an introvert’s game they just need to get over it in their head, there’s a fear I think, you know, and look, I understand introverts getting drained. Faster perhaps from human connection than an extrovert does. But it’s okay to have one on one conversation even, you know one meaningful conversation, an evening. 

Despina Zanganas  41:15  

Yeah, absolutely. It’s still a successful evening if you just have one,  yeah something meaningful. 

Sadaf Virji  41:20  

Exactly.

Despina Zanganas  41:19

So, that brings me to my next question. Do you have any pet peeves when it comes to networking?

Sadaf Virji  41:29

Oh my gosh. So, right now. I get a lot of messages on LinkedIn because we’re in COVID, and during the pandemic, you can’t meet people in person. Yeah. So I would say one pet peeve I have about virtual networking is when someone sends you two things actually. One is when you get a request to be friends to be connected on LinkedIn from someone you don’t know with absolutely no explanation that bothers me to no end. And the next is the explanation. You get is LinkedIn suggested we connect.

Despina Zanganas  42:13  

I know I hate that one.

Sadaf Virji  42:16 

LinkedIn is using an algorithm please use your brain. And now if I were to say pet peeve about in person, networking is when someone is there to you know make a business deal and not connect or get to know me on an individual level. So if you’re in person, you know that there’s always a few of those who are very interested in just giving you a business card and connecting because they have, they’re looking to make a deal. You know, they’re not looking to get to know me. I am not interested as much in those connections. To be honest, I find them to be surface level and its energy. I don’t have to give, unfortunately.

Despina Zanganas  4:39  

Yeah, yeah, that makes great sense. Going back to your LinkedIn comment. So what do you do so, you know, personally, there’s a few I usually reject those. But if it’s somebody who connected with me and I can see in their profile I know why they connected. I wish they would have messaged me. But they didn’t. I mean I even had somebody who’s like a really well-known high profile person just connect with me, and I was, and they didn’t say a word and I was like okay well obviously I can’t say no. You know what do you think do you ever connect with somebody who’s just not sent a message or do, or if they haven’t said anything Do you email them back? What do you typically do?

Sadaf Virji  43:50 

It depends on how much time I have. I will sometimes. I will sometimes accept the message. And, you know, respond, particularly with young people, because I find that there is. I’m assuming that they’re in a learning phase of their life. Because I teach at a college, I do get a lot of students asking me, and with a student. I in all my classes I teach that I tell them, hey, please send a message, even though I am your prof, I know who you are, you still need to send this because I want to train them. But if a student from another college adds me without anything, I’ll still accept. And, you know, let it go but if they sent a message. And they’re asking me something. If they’re a young person 100%, I’ll respond if it’s somebody who sent me a message asking a question, I will respond and try to figure out, you know what is happening. I’ll usually say occasionally ask: so, what are you interested in? How can I help? Like I’ll usually ask questions like that to get to the bottom of it. I had somebody. Add me a couple of maybe about a month or two ago, I accepted the invite. I didn’t know who they were, but they were part of an educational institution and because I work in that space I agreed. They sent me a message. A hi hello message, you know, and then said” “Do you use LinkedIn a lot?” And I was like:  “Sometimes” You know like I didn’t know how to respond to that question. And they I “Why do you ask?” and they said: “Well I just wanted to just out of curiosity” and then they saw that I worked for a company that promotes networking and so they said: “So please tell me about your company” and then I thought to myself. What she leading me to that, is she just interested in working for my company? Like what is? What’s happening here? So I find in those situations where I feel like I’m being cornered, I will. And, and I never do this in other parts of my life. I will ghost. I will say no, this is not respectful and, you know, we understand why people want to connect so just be upfront, tell me what you’re looking for, ask for my help, typically most people will you know say yes when you’re asking for help. So, try to sometimes I’ll respond and try to get to the bottom of it, and sometimes I let it go. 

Despina Zanganas  46:39 

I think that’s great advice. Totally. Okay, so I have a question, is there anybody out there that you would absolutely love to meet. The person has to be alive, someone that you’d love to network with and meet?

Sadaf Virji  46:55  

Okay so outside of Sheryl Sandberg and Jen Sincero, who I am very very, very big fan of. I, you know, have tried to connect with Avery Francis. Do you know her Despina?

Despina Zanganas  47:13  

I know the name, why do I know the name. 

Sadaf Virji  47:16 

She’s a diversity consultant, she has a really strong voice in the space in Toronto, particularly, And I, you know, her work when things happened this past in 2020 with the activism and the conversations that started about Black Lives Matter. She was posting such amazing content around how to approach people of colour, particularly people who are black. What kind of conversations are acceptable, what kind of conversations are not. I found her work to be really inspirational. And so, it hit me in a you know, a different way. And I have a lot of respect for her, and I would, I would have like a fangirl moment if I was able to chat with her.

Despina Zanganas  48:13  

So, the reason I ask that question is I have this little game that I play with each speaker and that’s you know if there’s anybody in the audience that knows Avery Francis, can you email me and let’s figure out a way to connect Sadaf with Avery. Let’s hope it works, I’m sure you know you’ve made it more local, it’s Toronto so I’m sure there’s some people out there so let’s see if we can get you connected.

Sadaf Virji  48:48

I love this game, I love this podcast.

Despina Zanganas  48:57  

Awesome. So now let’s go to some questions from the listeners. This question is from Carla. I’m originally from Mexico, and I worked in a bank, I’ve always networked with the management and quickly got promoted. Now that I’m in Canada I also work for a bank and I find it really difficult to network with the senior managers as they don’t seem to be as responsive. What’s your advice for me to get ahead.

Sadaf Virji  49:17

This is interesting because I think there can be a difference between how they are networking virtually versus how they’re networking, in person. If you’re in the office, and you knocked on the senior manager’s door and said: “Could we chat for a few minutes, while I’m grabbing a coffee, would you like to come with me?” I think it’s harder to say no. Or if you find them in the kitchen making a coffee and go make a coffee at the same time. You know, these are very small conversations or interactions that don’t mean too much on their own but can slowly amount to. Oh, I like coffee and so does this lovely person in my office and we chat about things and maybe they’re a coffee connoisseur and they you tell them about Mexican coffee and, you know, you start talking about things that are not work-related opportunities that may not be that may be accidental in the elevator when you get caught with someone right. I think those kind of casual conversations can help you lead to a point where maybe three months of meeting in the kitchen, at the same coffee schedule. You ask about a work-related project you heard about on their team, and said: “Hey, can I grab you for 15 minutes and ask you more about this? I’m so fascinated by it” And then, you know, then chances are you’ve built up enough coffee casual points that you can get, you know, get a yes to conversation like that. Virtually it’s a little bit more challenging because it’s not that people will say no to you I don’t think particularly managers, you know are often asked to communicate and interact with staff, but because you’re being asked it can feel forced. Right. And I think that there’s a little bit more of a challenge. And I think the way to get around it is to be very human in your interaction and be vulnerable, and if you’re feeling that it’s hard for you to connect with senior managers, but let’s say you’re using a program that you know maybe there’s a networking program within the company let’s say it was just an example of a scenario. And you connected with someone you know and you’re like I don’t know what to talk about, ask for advice people love to hear themselves talk. Right. Again me. And, and ask for advice. I find, even if someone doesn’t want to talk about themselves, because they’re a private person. When you ask, and you’re like, “I’m feeling this” or you show vulnerability. It really often paves the way for a really, it usually paves the way for connection. Very few times if you have the courage to be vulnerable with someone will they shut you down and be like: “Well, no, we don’t want to talk to you.” Right. Most times people are going to, it’s human nature we want to help, but also it allows this person who’s in a senior position to act like the mentor and tell this person who’s trying to figure out something that they’re struggling within the workplace, on how to do so.

Despina Zanganas  52:53 

You know if those are great answers I remember when I used to work in an office you know, grabbing a cup of coffee and meeting somebody in the kitchen. That’s when we really really got to connect and I learned so much. I mean, it never occurred to me until you just mentioned it, that just, you know, standing in the kitchen and having a chat with somebody got me to understand who they are and that’s an amazing point I agree you know virtually is a lot more difficult but you know reaching out on those levels that you were talking about I think is great. 

So, you know, that concludes our podcast today. I just wanted to thank you so much. I loved everything about this podcast and everything you said you know it’s such a pleasure to have you on the show and I just want to thank you so much.

Sadaf Virji  53:42  

Thank you Despina I am so grateful that you invited me. This has been so so fun. Please have me back. I will be more than happy to chat, more, more, more about networking.

Despina Zanganas  53:56

Sounds great. Thanks so much.

Sadaf Virji  53:58 

Thank you.

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